WCCAS: Still A Joke? ~OR~ Forget The Time Of Month, It’s That Time Of YEAR!
Posted By: midnightcartooner on January 31, 2007
First things first: I would be remiss in my duties as a writing contributor who also blogs on the side while reporting (official title - tentative) if I didn’t first link the main content of this entry. So here they are: your 2007 WCCA Nominees (whether you like them or not)!
If you’re in webcomics or you simply READ webcomics, you’ve seen this list, made your mind up as to who should win, who WILL win, and who shouldn’t even be on the list to begin with (Howard Taylor’s artwork on Starslip? O-V-E-Rated). Still, I love’s me some fiery debate, what some might even call drama, and so this little gem over at Fleen caught my eye. While most stories on the Fleen archives garner, on average, three-to-five comments each, some amass well over forty, usually due to the aforementioned debate breaking out. And lo! The god Kurtz doth bow down from his mighty mountain to deign what is right and righteous! Behold!
Because the WCAA appear to be webcomics giving itself awards. You're all patting yourselves on the back for kinda, sorta, maybe, not really accomplishing anything yet. [...]
The best part is where people get mad at me for being nominated in your pretend-awards because it takes up a spot for their chance to win a pretend-award.
in other news: f*** webcomics.
I bleeped the last line to keep it Lunchbox around here, but if you “work” in webcomics as either a job or a labor of love, can you honestly read that last bit and not feel the least bit threatened, if not really, REALLY f***ing p****ed o**?!?
(Deep breaths now, Midnight. Keep it Lunchbox, keep it Lunchbox… )
The worst part of these little spurts of Kurtz genius is that, outside of a scant few others, he has acheived a great deal of success in the vicinity of the webcomics milieu. But wouldn’t he have to go back and give the medium a big pat on the back for the HUGE boost, instead of decry that which bore him to greatness? Sure, the guy’s got an Eisner (or, as some might see it, a real award) for his work on top of countless WCCAs, but does that mean that first award from his peers wasn’t a great boost of confidence, possibly even the thing that DROVE him to win that Eisner? I might even posit that Kurtz’s first WCCA is the reason he gets up every morning.
As the later comments on that thread suggest, maybe a win-limit should be enforced to ensure the winners get that boost and then move on to do bigger and better things than cry foul on the very award that begat them? Many commenters compared the WCCAs to the SAG awards, which are also awarded by the peers of those in the film industry, but awarding something on that basis is completely different when the works they are judged on are created not in hours or days, but months, even years. Should the whole awards process for webcomics be reworked or even scrapped until we can get our act together?
If so, can we, as a community, impose an embargo on the awards? I’ll go you one better; to see to it that no one votes, let’s collectively black ball those who choose to defy the will of the masses! Need me to write it bigger? BLACK. BALL. You will never, ever find work in webcomics again. We will form search committees, break out the flashlights, there is NOWHERE you can hide that we won’t find you! To paraphrase the great, Sean ‘Puffy “P-Diddy”‘ Combs, Vote and DIE! Let’s get crazy up in here! Shake things up! Make webcomics the rockstar, edge-livin’, evil-cousin of comic books that everyone already thinks we are!
*ahem*
Discuss amongst yourselves, I’m going to seek the lowest point below sea level in the hopes that the wrath of the god Kurtz will pass over me and mine.
I think everyone’s getting a little too worked up over Scott’s use of rhetorical hyperbole. I very much doubt that he’s ungrateful for the living webcomics have given him.
It seems to me his issue is with a webcomics community that seems more obsessed with internal validation than expanding its audience (external validation?).
Comment by bryant — January 31, 2007 @ 10:07 pm
I disagree Byrant.
The Eisner awards are the ultimate from of comics patting itself on the back for acheiving so little, and he’s not decrying them. If there’s anyone had the right to take that “it only counts if it comes from the outside” attitude, it’d be Gene Yang.
It appears to me that Scott’s issue is that the things that happen in webcomics without his involvement or approval are shit. It’s an attitude which he has a long history of exercising his gift for “rhetorical hyperbole” on.
Comment by The William G — January 31, 2007 @ 11:03 pm
Howard Tayler makes Schlock Mercenary, not Starslip Crisis. Starslip Crisis is made by Kris Straub.
Comment by Maritza Campos — January 31, 2007 @ 11:31 pm
I need something in your article clarified here, Midnight.
When you say “webcomics” and when I say “webcomics” we might be talking about two different things.
When you say “webcomics” do you mean the medium or the people. I meant the people. I love the medium. Keep the medium. Fuck the community.
I hope that wasn’t too wrathful.
Comment by Scott Kurtz — February 1, 2007 @ 2:07 am
Scott, whether you’re saying “fuck” the webcomics medium or the people, you’re not sounding anymore respectful in my opinion. You’re sounding like a spoiled brat. Plain and simple. A lot of people put you up on a HIGH pedestal but with a comment like “in other news: fuck webcomics.” and “Fuck the [webcomic] community.” I hope a lot of people put their Kurtz pedestal alittle lower. I know I did. Judging from your recent comments and podcasts, this pompousness hasn’t been the first time and it definitely won’t be the last.
BTW, are you a female? How are we, the readers, suppossed to assume you meant the community and not the medium? The only person I know who expects me to read minds like that is my WIFE.
Comment by Chad Diez — February 1, 2007 @ 4:38 am
“I might even posit that Kurtz's first WCCA is the reason he gets up every morning.”
I find that hard to believe, since he’s never won one.
Comment by Gregory King — February 1, 2007 @ 7:50 am
Mr Kurtz: All you’ve done is clarify that you intended to offend people directly, rather than indirectly. Instead of saying “f*** your work* you’re saying “f*** you”.
I consider myself part of the webcomics community, and we’ve never met, and I suspect you’ve never heard of me - yet you’ve deliberately insulted me. How can you possibly justify such prejudice?
Comment by David C Simon — February 1, 2007 @ 8:03 am
It might not mean anything, and surely not to anyone’s pocketbooks, but I actually was going to checkout the PvP animated series thing to “support webcomics” or get behind an effort I thought might help people do what they love, but the comment by Kurtz on Fleen “fuck webcomics”, turned me off to spending my 20 bucks there. Yeah yeah, help out Kris Straub, I think I’d rather just go buy one of his books now instead.
Comment by Bob McCrapsHispants — February 1, 2007 @ 9:01 am
“**** the community.”
**** us? Now, that’s just unacceptible. How do you think your name, your comic got around? It got around through numerous links, plugs, and support from other people in the community. It got out because at some point, the community made you one of its elite - one of its champions. People talk about the big comics and link them; they wouldn’t be big if the community didn’t give them that widespread support. You may not owe anybody anything, but you can’t disregard the community’s role in helping to get you where you are today.
I’ve been a supporter or yours for a long time, Scott, through your good times and bad times. But this - this crosses a line - you’ve officially blasted every cartoonist out there now, print and web. You’re walking that fine line, Scott; be careful how you step, for you now tread the path to becoming the next Buckley.
Comment by Sean C — February 1, 2007 @ 9:30 am
Aren’t all awards just a community patting itself on the back? The nobel prize, the acadamy awards, etc.
There’s nothing wrong with a community selecting certain members once a year to recognize for their work.
Comment by Scarybug — February 1, 2007 @ 12:07 pm
Chad:
Aren’t you the guy who publicly joined in an unprovoked attack on me during some podcast-round table mocking my weight? And I believe my response to that, was to turn to my friend Jason and say “Despite the fact that this guy has never met me and is just tearing me apart based on my body type, he’s really fucking talented and you should ask him to draw Pet Pro.”
Yeah, I’m a real unreasonable son-of-a-bitch. I’m sorry that I’ve tarnished the pedestal you’ve placed me on.
David:
Normally I dismiss comics built with Poser because the art, in my opinion, lacks personal style and isn’t my cup of tea. But your stuff is really good. I have never seen before today and if you were nominated for a WCCA then you should know that it’s done nothing to promote your work. I would suggest you focus less on that award and more on some vertical marketing. It would benefit you better. Just my advice.
Scarybug:
Yes, The SAG, Oscars, etc are peers giving themselves awards. The difference is that with those awards, the people giving them out to each other are giants and luminaries who have created some of the most memorable art in our society.
If Peter O’Toole votes for you to win a SAG award, yes that means something. You know why? Because he’s Peter FUCKING O’Toole. Lawrence of Arabia. One of the greatest movies of our time. Yeah, that means something.
————-
You guys are getting mad at me because I asked to have an inaccurate nomination removed from an award ceremony that isn’t even taken seriously by the people who run it. Your anger and bile is mis-directed.
You guys want it both ways. You want to make me out to be a jerk one day, and the next I’m the guy who you’ve always admired and has now betrayed that admiration. If I participate you tell me not to, if I don’t you say I’ve turned by back on the very people who put me where I am.
If you guys could form a committee to decide what role you want me to play, that would benefit me much better than any award.
Comment by Scott Kurtz — February 1, 2007 @ 12:45 pm
Scott, just some advice from a complete stranger. You shouldn’t worry about responding to things you supposedly don’t care about. You should just go sell whatever you’re selling, because every time you respond, you’re probably losing some paying customers. You have opinions, these guys do too. You say “fuck webcomics” , they have a right to be disgusted.
Comment by Bob McCrapsHispants — February 1, 2007 @ 1:32 pm
The problem, Bob, is that when I say “GO WEBCOMICS” They feel the have the right to be just as disgusted.
You tell me to just not worry and do my own thing? That, apparently, is just as serious an offense, my friend. Look at it from my perspective.
Comment by Scott Kurtz — February 1, 2007 @ 1:36 pm
Kurtz,
Yeah, I’m the guy that was drawing a satirical comic strip (at the time) that basically took a shot at anyone and anything in this world. Just like the Daily Show or any political comic strip in the newspaper would. The reason I drew you ‘big’ in my strip is because it’s a fact, how else was I supposed to draw you? Thin? The comic strip was NOT meant to make fun of your WEIGHT at all, it was actually taking a crack at Pet Pro’s situation at the time.
That leads to the podcast, you see a funny joke that involves a ‘big’ guy and then you get about 5 guys together to talk about it on a podcast, yes, there are gonna be fat jokes but if you listen back on that podcast I, yes, I was trying to get us back onto the real subject, not fat jokes.
I’ve told you before that I was thankful for what you did. You put in a good word for me despite what I had drawn about you and that was very noble. Why do you think I didn’t say anything when you originally said ‘fuck webcomics’? But with this recent comment, it just shows that you’re spoiled. ‘fuck the webcomic community’ is you kicking everyone who does webcomics in the balls. People that have regular jobs AND do a webcomic for the love of it. A lot of those webcomics are fantastic too! You know why we do that? Because we think we can have some kind of success like you or Penny Arcade or DJ Coffman, etc. We are juggling 2-3 jobs (if you have a family or not) and the biggest guy (no pun intended) just slammed us all! You know why? Because you let an Eisner get to your head.
Whether the WCCA’s are organized or not, I think everyone in webcomics deserves an award institution simply for that fact that we are working so much more for it.
You should be sorry and I accept your apology.
Comment by Chad Diez — February 1, 2007 @ 2:06 pm
Scott, you’ve admitted yourself in the past that you occasionally approach things in a caustic way and it’s that approach that can confuse people. In this same thread, you’ve said some nice things about at least one webcomic and been quoted as saying some awful things about the webcomic community.
That’s where it gets confusing. You love the medium…that’s obvious. There’s no shortage of enthusiasm about comics in general and the offshoots like the series. But when you spin around and lash out at others who are enthusiastic or enthusiastic in different ways then YES, you become the hero who’s suddenly looking a little less heroic.
There’s no doubt that through a variety of means you’ve ascended to the webcomics “promised land”, but I can’t imagine it’s worth your while to piss on the crowd below you. Saying something like “fuck [the] webcomics [community]” is incendiary and self-defeating. You don’t want the “industry” to pat itself on the back and give out seemingly masturbatory awards? Don’t participate. Let it go. Let it pass. And if someone wants to give you an award, smile and nod, man.
The webcomic community doesn’t have enough “giants” to accomplish something like the SAG or Academy Awards. But keep in mind that the equivalent awards in the “real” comic industry, the Eisners, didn’t come about until 1987, taking over for the Kirby Awards which started in 1985. It took a long time for the giants to grow.
So let the community have its group hugs for now. There’s no doubt that as an actual industry forms here, there will be standards and standard bearers to keep a fine separation of wheat from chaff and awards that have some deeper significance will emerge. You know about patience, Scott. You hammered away at PvP for a long time before it was on the tip of the community’s tongue.
I don’t think non-involvement is an offense. It’s worked quite well for others.
b
Comment by brandonjcarr — February 1, 2007 @ 2:10 pm
I forgot to mention the Harvey awards in my previous comment. They were also started in 1987, however, following the fall of the Kirby, so it doesn’t affect my point.
b
Comment by brandonjcarr — February 1, 2007 @ 2:15 pm
Chad, you made fun of my weight because it’s the easy joke. It always is.
The point that strip, from what I could tell, was to mock me for being fat, and mock Jason because you felt that only reason his strip was getting any attention was due to his friendship with me. And you believed in that position SO STRONGLY, that you dropped it like a hot potato when the opportunity to jump on was presented to you. Suddenly, once you get to draw pet pro, it’s association with me is just fine?
Whatever.
Comment by Scott Kurtz — February 1, 2007 @ 2:27 pm
In defense of Scott, he was an asshole WAY WAY before he won an Eisner.
Comment by D.J. Coffman — February 1, 2007 @ 2:35 pm
I got nominated for a WCCA the first year PetPro was started. No one told me I was nominated, no one told me how to participate, and the only mail I got from it was another web comic listing to me what I was doing wrong with my web comic. That was like a year and a half ago.
Why am I telling you all this? I have no idea, but I think it should be out there.
I can totally understand why people don’t take this serious. If you want them to take it serious, why don’t you step up the game a little bit. You HAVE GOT to admit this year was a pretty big screw up? Why isn’t anyone discussing that? Oh yea, Kurtz is here and its dog pile time.
I guess I just don’t understand you guys.
Comment by Jason — February 1, 2007 @ 2:50 pm
While I’m loving this situmatling debate on the right of mankind to be a dick, I’d like to say I’m very pround of Midnight for coming up witht he phrase “Keep it Lunchbox.” I love it, I’m using it from now on, in Web comics and in real life.
Carry on, and let’s keep it Lunchbox.
Comment by The Geek — February 1, 2007 @ 3:03 pm
Finally! Someone caught onto my main reason for making this post! Keep it real, The Geek, and keep it Lunchbox!
Oh, and listen to the Talkcast tonight so we can get this whole thing figured out… Lunchbox-style!
Comment by midnightcartooner — February 1, 2007 @ 3:09 pm
Kurtz,
Since drawing Pet Pro, when have I ever taken advantage of the fact that you’re friends with Jason? Give me one time. You can’t, because I haven’t. I took down the strip I did about you sometime AFTER drawing Pet Pro. It felt disrespectful after the respect you’d shown me. So why leave it up?
I jumped on the opprotunity with Pet Pro because I felt like I could bring something more to it then the second Matt had brought. I love the comic and still do, there have been people that never wanted me to draw it but now I’ve changed their minds. Never once though did I use your name or your friendship with Jason.
When was the last time you promoted Pet Pro since I came on as artist anyways? Zero. (There were some photos recently but that wasn’t a direct promotion.) So, how are we NOW taking advantage of your ’superior’ position in comics? The traffic has still been great with or without your help.
You can say “Whatever” all you want. All that says to me is that I’m right. You have plenty of people on here and Fleen that respond to you with intelligence and all you can say is “Fuck” this and “Whatever” that. Maybe if you acted like a grown up with an education then you wouldn’t have to do this podcast later tonight to try and explain yourself.
Comment by Chad Diez — February 1, 2007 @ 3:48 pm
This reminds me that I haven’t checked out PetPro in a long time, I always LOVED that concept. I think I even offered to draw it when there was an open call- I liked the idea of it, not that it got like two plugs from mega-mouth.
I don’t think Chad ever name dropped or took the job because of Jason being friends with Kurtz. If the only reason Chad got the job was because Kurtz put in a good word for him, that would be sad. Chad is a really talented cartoonist above all. I think he depublished his cartoon out of respect, and the fact it obviously upset Scott. That was a man thing to do, but obviously no matter how many times you apologize or Kurtz accepts, he’ll bring it back up to jab you with it.
Comment by D.J. Coffman — February 1, 2007 @ 4:03 pm
Nice. I’m always the villiain, aren’t I? No matter what I do?
If that’s the role I’ve been chosen to serve for this “community” I guess I’ll accept that.
Comment by Scott Kurtz — February 1, 2007 @ 4:13 pm
Dude, you said FUCK WEBCOMICS. You said that.
Then in your defense, you say, it’s the people.
You’re a trainwreck inside your mind, aren’t you?
Comment by D.J. Coffman — February 1, 2007 @ 4:19 pm
Denial. Denial. Denial.
Comment by Chad Diez — February 1, 2007 @ 4:27 pm
Look, Scott - here’s the thing. You’re NOT a villain; the last thing webcomics need is another villain. People take offense when you come out and say things like, “**** webcomics” and “**** the community”. Regardless of intent, it’s interpreted as blatant disrespect to everyone in this field - not just the select few that you dislike. It’s a blanket term, a generalization that strikes at the very heart of webcomics, the creators AND the readers. The community is what gets any of us where we are, as webcomics don’t have a mainstream audience.
You set yourself up for these things, Scott. You took some MAJOR heat on the letter to Bill Amend. Keep in mind that you’ve repeatedly attacked the print guys in the past, and that sometimes, even when you extend the olive branch, you can get shot down - believe me, this is nothing I’m not familiar with. What people saw was just another round of complaints; given that history, it gets interpreted as spitting on the print guys yet another way, especially since you went into it with a very vague plan. Yes, I’m aware of some rumors that you’re currently trying to build an alliance of print and web guys - if that’s true, the bravo. Actions speak louder than words, but words leave a legacy if there is only inaction. That’s what hurt you there - it appeared to be all talk.
THAT’S what it’s all about, Scott. THAT is why you take so much heat. You’re in a position where you can do a world of good for the community, but seem to be only offering venomous criticisms and complaints, then pulling back and playing the victim. “I'm always the villiain, aren't I? No matter what I do?” - No, Scott, that’s NOT what happens. You WANT change, but you’ve done very little to enact it, despite the influence you have; you’ve squandered it by bashing other people, and deep down, you regret that; it’s just that you don’t see a way out of that role you yourself have created.
Scott, I’m telling you this because it’s gotta suck to be in that position. I may not be your biggest fan, but I will offer you this bit of advice. Simply consider the implications of your words. You’re honest and up-front with your opinions, but there’s a fine line between truth and venom, and it’s a two way street. While you’ve made unprovoked and pointless attacks on others, you’ve been subjected to them, too. It’s not too late to fix that. People are forgiving, man. If you want to bury the shit and get on with life, then tell people that and do it. Tell people you want to end the stupid feuds. You’d be surprised how many people would be willing to reciprocate and move on.
Comment by Sean C — February 1, 2007 @ 4:38 pm
Guys, seriously. Let’s address the points here. Because I like talking about this and there’s no harm in talking. So let’s talk it out. But I want to discuss the issues. I don’t need to sit in here and have people put words in my mouth.
I said Fuck webcomics. Let me clarify what I meant.
Fuck as In fuck and webcomics as in the “community.” I’m happy to defend my position on that (this thread helps my point a lot). I’m not shitting on the medium. I want to make that clear. I think comics and comic strips on the web (quick disposable content) is ideal. It’s glorious and it changed my life.
I earned everything I have with PvP. Whatever it is. And I’m not saying what it is beyond my living. It’s my art and my job. I think everyone forgets that PvP was not very successful for years. That I worked a day job for years. Nobody handed me this. Nobody put me here. I earned it. It’s mine. I get that. You don’t get to take that away from me.
So I get upset when people throw shit at me like the WCCA’s put me here or “Webcomic” put me here. I put me here. Good or bad, whatever PvP is or isn’t…I did it.
Chad. I owe you NOTHING. I did NOTHING for you, and it was wrong for me to imply that. Jason is my friend and I suggested to him that not pursuing your talent was a big, big mistake. The ONLY good thing about having to suffer all the horrible bullshit you posted on your site and you and your friends said about me in that podcast was that your work helps Jason and makes Pet Pro better. You two are a great fit and the strip has been better than ever since you came on. But I owe you nothing. If you don’t like me, then don’t come up to me at cons and blow smoke up my ass. I don’t want to be your fucking role model so take me off any pedestal you have me on. I’m a flawed, asshole who got lucky. I have nothing to do with your work or success.
You tell me what I’m in denial off and I’ll address that.
Most people in webcomics focus inwards towards making the community the thing that’s most important. The WCCAs, the critical review sites, it’s all bullshit…it’s all about making something real out of nothing. I love cartoonists using the web. I hate the webcomics “community.”
I stand by my fuck.
Comment by Scott Kurtz — February 1, 2007 @ 4:39 pm
Well, as an unofficial outsider (since my comic hasn’t posted an update in a almost year and a half), I have to say this:
Scott Kurtz is right. His expression of his feelings is debatable, but his actual opinion is pretty solid.
Comment by Larrik Jaerico — February 1, 2007 @ 4:40 pm
Look… no one can be a villain without wearing a helmet or, at the very least, menacingly rubbing their hands together.
I don’t think anyone looks at you as a villain, Scott. I think people take offense at the fact that you often lead the charge on all things comicky (ie. asking the print and webcomic community to help each other) and seem to do so from the standpoint of LOVING webcomics… but then, within the same heartbeat, turn around and say “Fuck webcomics”.
I don’t have anything against you. I don’t have anything against you speaking your mind. I think, sometimes, it’s a healthy thing to do and if it keeps a person in the limelight, well, that’s just an added bonus, right?
Comment by Wiz Rollins — February 1, 2007 @ 4:40 pm
Wow, in the time it took me to post that, a lot was said, and this conversation is quickly devolving.
Gives me the urge to yell out TIM BUCKLEY IS YOUR MASTER NOW!
Comment by Larrik Jaerico — February 1, 2007 @ 4:47 pm
Sean C, you are kidding yourself if you think I have the power to do anything good with or within webcomics.
Go back to my site and read my open letter to Bill Amend. It was self-effacing, honest and genuine. There was nothing mean spirited or Machiavellian about it. Syndicated cartoonists are contacting me about it, I’m just not posting about that because (frankly) it’s not worth the heat to bring it up again.
Webcomics response to that letter was “good idea, fuck Kurtz.”
So listen to me when I tell you that good or bad from me = the same response. Whatever I post now is tainted by the fact that over the course of 9 years we’re at the tail end of a level of escalation that started back with the first member of the webcomics community saying “Why him and not me? Fuck Scott Kurtz.” and me responding to that.
And now we’re here. So trust me when I tell you that it doesn’t matter what I say. “Fuck Webcomics”, “I would like to work with syndicated cartoonsits”, “I think the daily grind is great, I want to participate.”, “Thank you for the award.”, “No thank you I don’t want that award.”….it just doesn’t matter.
Participate, ignore, stay quiet, be vocal… No matter what I choose it will be the wrong choice.
Surely you can see that.
Let me give you an example that relates to this.
I have a friend who no matter what I say, hands back the most negative response possible. If I were to go buy a new hard drive and tell him about it he would ask “What kind did you get?”
He’s not asking because he’s interested. He’s asking because any answer is the wrong answer. He’s got the goods on every brand and why it was the right choice. So the problem isn’t “Did I make the right choice?” The problem is “I made a choice.”
I hope I’m explaining myself properly.
Comment by Scott Kurtz — February 1, 2007 @ 4:49 pm
I’m not sure how Scott hates the whole world and is a meanie and at the same time he’s got a lot of webcartoonist friends.
No, seriously. It puzzles me.
Comment by Maritza Campos — February 1, 2007 @ 5:26 pm
If you’re trying to get into baseball, for example, don’t you look up to the greats like Babe Ruth, Barry Bonds, etc.? You aspire to be in their place or work with them, etc. It applies here, Kurtz. Trust me, any admiration for you is WAY gone by now but don’t act like people don’t think that way about you.
Of course you don’t owe me anything. When did I say you owed me something? Can you quote me saying “Scott Kurtz owes me something!” No. Why would you assume that? The thing is I do (er, did) like you. I had a respect. That’s WHY I went up to you at the San Diego Comic Con. Jesus christ, I was trying to MEND things! I was trying to reach a common ground. When I take a shot at somebody on ‘Today’ it’s not meant personally. John Stewart makes fun of John McCain constantly but repeatedly has him on the show as a guest. There’s no hard feelings at all between them because it’s called ‘poking fun at one another’.
Please, don’t say you have nothing to do with my work or success. I know that.
You’re right. You are a flawed asshole who got lucky. What a world.
Comment by Chad Diez — February 1, 2007 @ 5:53 pm
I wanted to chime in here because the subject is near and dear to me, but I didn’t want to for fear that DJ would tell me to get Scott’s dick out of my mouth before I opened it to talk.
Scott is my friend, but I disagree with him on the “fuck webcomics” thing. Of course that’s going to piss people off and put them on the defensive/offensive. Then all the time is spent digging yourself out of that hole, and if you make any good points, people go “yeah, well… what about this ‘fuck webcomics’ thing?!” At that point it’s best to just skulk off to your castle again and swish your riding crop.
The WCCAs, to me, are important inasmuch as they show what’s believed to be professional work by other webcartoonists. For all the complaints of popularity-favoring, that’s the work that’s up in front, and that’s the work that gets selected from. So I’m gratified when I see other webcartoonists, peers, considered that Starslip Crisis is the best Black and White Sci-Fi Strip Starting with S Drawn by a Half-Egyptian. I mean it. If it was some private council of webcartoonists who had the time to organize such things and deliberate on who THEY considered the best (and they have the time because their own work isn’t successful), then it doesn’t mean anything. The WCCAs are not that.
But that’s where my interest in the WCCAs ends. The committee is poorly formed, poorly informed, poorly organized and the awards are poorly executed. There’s no excuse for the webcartoonist community to be ignorant of when webcartoonist voting on webcartoonists on the INTERNET is happening. If this was the Pony Express or Carrier Pigeon Cartoonist awards, it’s fine.
That either means nobody knew about it, which is the WCCAs’ fault, or webcartoonists don’t think much of the awards. The WCCAs need to be removed from the hands they’re currently in. That’s all there is to it.
The trouble is compounded when we end up believing our own hype, that the WCCAs are important because they present webcomics to the world. I don’t know how it can be argued that they do. The awards are totally disconnected from the public. They have as much impact as your company newsletter, the one with the pictures from the spring picnic and the raffle.
But we end up believing that hype, and the awards take on properties that they can’t follow through on. It’s wholly internal to the webcomics world, but we start to think that they can MAKE you.
This was my same argument with all the webcomics criticism that elected itself and insisted that its importance was DUE to the fact that it elected itself. Really? Show me anyone in the outside world that knows what Webcomics Examiner or Tangents or Webcomics Review Monthly or any of those ones that evaporated overnight are. No one reads those but webcartoonists — no, no one reads those but OTHER SELF-ELECTED CRITICS. It’s worthless!
And worse, they distract us from what is important — bettering your own goddamn webcomic and trying to build your own audience. The WCCAs will not bring you an audience, nor will a review from some kid who wishes he hadn’t flunked out of art history and throws darts at a copy of Lemert’s Social Theory to see what big word he should use next.
Then you have people like DJ Coffman who slings as much horseshit invective that Scott does, and pretends that he’s innocent. How many times do you need to show Joey Manley in a pink bodysuit or call him a fag-mumbler or whatever the hell the comment was? Yeah. Scott is fat, he’s going to EAT someone. Awesome. Do you really feel like you’re undoing damage Scott did? Like you’re elevating the discussion? Have a little shame for God’s sake.
Then you have people like me who waste an hour writing this instead of working, making an impassioned plea to the three people who are actually reading it.
That’s where the community is bullshit. That’s where it fails; when it pretends it means more than it does. There are two communities here. One is your readership and the other is this one, where guys like us shit regularly in the same mudpit we wrestle in. They’ll both always exist, but only one matters.
The readers, the people that matter, don’t care about this stuff. I was going to actually write my feelings in a post at my website instead of announce that the PvP series dropped today. Where are my priorities?
Where are our priorities?
Comment by Kristofer Straub — February 1, 2007 @ 5:56 pm
I certainly agree that the WCCA has a long way to go as far as appearing professional goes. It certainly was a pretty ridiculous snafu to not have someone proofread the list of nominees, and last year’s ceremony went rather pear-shaped. But I don’t think the whole endeavor is a waste of time. I expect it to improve incrementally.
I don’t think webcomics have a Peter O'Toole yet. If we do, then he should step forward and start his own awards. Until then, it’s the best way for us to say “That Fred Gallagher draws a mighty fine Science Fiction Comic… I mean Howard Taylor”.
Comment by Scarybug — February 1, 2007 @ 5:57 pm
Chad, you know I represent you tonight, but let’s keep it straight:
John Stewart- Green Lantern
Jon Stewart- Serious reporter
Just fact checking as the day turns to night. I’ll continue lubing up my vocal chords until the big moment…
Comment by midnightcartooner — February 1, 2007 @ 6:01 pm
The difference here, Chad, is that Stewart mocks McCain’s ACTIONS. he doesn’t make fun of his personal features or flaws. Today the comic may have been about commentary. But your strip about me wasn’t commentary. It was simply you taking a shot at my weight and your perceived notion about my ego. It was taking a shot at Jason for owing his success to me.
Since none of that is true, it’s poor commentary at BEST.
But please do not pretend that you’re “why him and not me” bullshit was political satire or effective commentary on my actions or some “situation.” Because if it was, you would have left it up on your site.
If you still don’t understand why I said “fuck webcomics” let me know and I’ll try to explain myself better. But we should stop this public fighting before it damages your relationship with Jason.
Comment by Scott Kurtz — February 1, 2007 @ 6:10 pm
You’re right, Midnight. Thanks for pointing it out. Slip of the hand. It’s JON Stewart, serious reporter of fake news. =)
Comment by Chad Diez — February 1, 2007 @ 6:12 pm
I’m done saying anything, Scott. I’ve said what I have to say but I’m not stopping now because I’m afraid of ruining my partnership with Jason. You’re a big boy and he’s a big boy. (no pun intended, again)
This is between me an you. No need in involving Jason. So, don’t threaten me like that.
Comment by Chad Diez — February 1, 2007 @ 6:18 pm
One phone call, Chad. That’s all it takes. One phone call. Be mindful.
you just stepped knee deep in Kurtz-country, pal. Welcome to threat level: midnight.
One more word out of you and you’ll be back to drawing pigs in top hats.
Comment by Scott Kurtz — February 1, 2007 @ 6:28 pm
Eh, I thought this piece by MidnightMan came off as coddling those involved with webcomics. It seems as if the author is saying: “We need these community-based navel-gazing events or else no one will do webcomics!” whatever. if you like comics, you do comics. even if nobody reads them but you. even if they never get nominated. even if some guy you’ve never met like Scott Kurtz doesn’t respond to something you write on some website only other navel-gazing artists care about. even AFTER he stole your chance to get 500 more page views because he got nominated for some award instead of you. let’s face it, he doesn’t deserve it. you do. good for you. now move on.
I can’t believe he dropped an F-bomb, though. I, for one, feel very threatened and pee-poo *******’ed or whatever.
Comment by Andrew — February 1, 2007 @ 6:39 pm
But Kris, hasn’t You.0 blurred the very line between the two communities? Thanks to Halfpixel, ANYONE can vote in the WCCAs!
Comment by Scarybug — February 1, 2007 @ 6:40 pm
You’re right! I revolutionized everything!
Comment by Kristofer Straub — February 1, 2007 @ 7:04 pm
lol Kurtz, You’re a funny, dude.
Comment by Chad Diez — February 1, 2007 @ 7:06 pm
Kris, I would have told you to get Scott’s dick out of your mouth, but you’ve thoroughly digested it by now.
And hey, I’m not the only one who draws Joey Manley wearing Pink, I don’t think I’ve ever done so? I did draw him getting hit with a brick once though. — you must be thinking of the cover to Comixpedia. I never try to act like I’m innocent, only when my fucking words are twisted around into utter bullshit. Something you guys should know a little about. Nope, I’m not a nice guy I guess. I’m fucking honest.
Shouldn’t you guys be rejoicing today about your animation stuff??? It boggles my mind that you two are here posting so much. You should be attending the virtual cash registers!
Comment by DJ Coffman — February 1, 2007 @ 7:50 pm
“One more word out of you and you'll be back to drawing pigs in top hats.” — Scott Kurtz
I happen to like pigs with top hats, Scott. A lot.
Comment by Wiz Rollins — February 1, 2007 @ 8:01 pm
'One more word out of you and you'll be back to drawing pigs in top hats. Scott Kurtz
Wait… was that a fat joke?
Comment by Wiz Rollins — February 1, 2007 @ 8:08 pm
“But your stuff is really good. I have never seen before today and if you were nominated for a WCCA then you should know that it's done nothing to promote your work.”
Mr Kurtz, a few points to make:
1. Thankyou
2. This is exactly what the WCCAs are about, getting noticed by other webcartoonists who otherwise would never have heard of me, and the support and encouragement that comes from their feedback
3. My webstats show a significant number of people discovering Crimson Dark thanks to the WCCAs - for such a relatively young webcomic every potential new reader fills me with joy. Similarly, I’ve discovered several webcomics through the WCCAs. Sure, I might get more traffic through other means, but the WCCAs cost me nothing and are run by volunteers - why look a gift horse in the mouth?
4. You seem to regard exposure outside the webcomics community as paramount, and exposure within the community as worthless (correct me if I’m wrong). I’d argue that *any* exposure is to be valued.
Comment by David C Simon — February 1, 2007 @ 8:16 pm
Scott,
What the eff? I’ve read this whole frikkin discussion you’re having with these people, and I’m not about to get on your case about the whole “eff webcomics” thing. I like Kris Straubs take on it A LOT more. That’s all I’m saying.
Here’s why I’m calling BS on you. Chad called you out on your “eff the webcomics” and all you did was bring up the fat joke. The same fat joke that he formerly apologized for and removed out of respect. He says “I’m sorry” You say “YOU MADE A FAT JOKE!” He says “Seriously dude, I apologized, it’s in the past” you say “YOU MADE A FAT JOKE!”. It’s okay to have a controversial opinion. You explained yourself and all that, but you keep coming to this power you have over Chad and his strip and how he called you fat and blah blah blah. And now this last comment you made “One more word and you’ll be back to drawing pigs in tophats” and the rest of the threat that went with it, that is web nazi at it’s finest. So what? Just because you have a friend and 200,000 daily hits you’re the guy that runs things? Screw people for having an opinion that’s different than you?
I respect people who are total jerks: Gabe and Tycho, John Kricfalusi, Jon Stewart, and you. You guys have the guts to call out things that others don’t. Someone says “I love Ctrl Alt Del” and you’re the first one to say it’s derivative and unfunny. The internet says they hate Garfield(me along with them) and you say how great it is. I respect that. I respect that you agree and disagree with me at any given time and have the stones to put it out there. But resorting to threats like that… Congradulations. Tim Buckley would be so proud of you right now. What next? RoMicide 2.0?
I’ve always respected you. Not just for being a figure head of webcomics, but for being the guy who says what he wants without caring who says something bad about it. But this dispute you’re having with Chad disgusting.
You don’t owe Chad publicity or bandwidth. You’re right. But you do owe Chad an apology.
Comment by Nick — February 1, 2007 @ 10:28 pm
I can understand where you’re coming from, Scott. Perhaps I over-estimated the power that you wield within the comics world, but you have tried to do things to benefit it before, such as the letter to Amend. You’ve shown an interest in doing so. Basically, all I meant was that you have more connections than most of us. You’d have a better chance of organizing something if you wanted to. Not much more than that.
I can also understand your frustrations with the community, but man, don’t generalize everyone and lump them together. For every detractor you’ve got out there, you’ve got at least 2-3 supporters. If you just came out and said, “Some of you suck. You know who you are. Fuck you.” Even that, as harsh as it sounded, it would have been so much better, and even humorous.
I’ve been there, too. When we did Webcomics Idol, we had people who loved it and people who spewed shit about it - we just ignored those people. Do what you gotta do man, but don’t let your detractors get to you like that. It ain’t healthy, and that’s where you wind up hurting yourself.
Christ, what the community needs more than anything right now is to just cut this crap out. No more petty attacks, no more cheap shots, no more infighting. Kris is right when he says it doesn’t do any good, and we forget the whole reason for comicking is to produce great works. I’ve tried to play the role of diplomat in the past, and let me tell you that ain’t easy sometimes. It may be a pipe dream to just ask for a fresh start across the board, but at least it might be worth pursuing. These petty battles just hurt the image of our medium as a whole.
Comment by Sean C — February 1, 2007 @ 10:48 pm
guys, I’m just yanking Chad’s chain. Jason Salsbury is, like my best friend. He lives down the street from me. I helped him start Pet Pro. I like Chad, and respect his work. I’m just busting his chops.
Comment by Scott Kurtz — February 2, 2007 @ 5:32 am
I really wanted to see some pigs in tophats. Is that so wrong?
Comment by Larrik Jaerico — February 2, 2007 @ 10:51 am
You guys are fucking idiots.
Comment by sohmer — February 2, 2007 @ 11:35 am
Way to add to the discussion, Douche!
Comment by Ryan Seacrest — February 2, 2007 @ 12:35 pm
Seacrest….OUT!
Comment by Scott Kurtz — February 2, 2007 @ 1:11 pm
Actually Larrik, you just might be seeing that pig in a tophat very soon:
http://chaddiez.blogspot.com/2007/02/sophisticated-pig-set-for-comeback.html
FYI, Wiz and I were already talking about bringing back the pig before Kurtz’s ‘insult’.
Last LAST thought about this thing between Kurtz and I: Honestly, I don’t know if Kurtz is busting my chops, did you? Another one of those things I had to assume, again. I don’t know the guy well enough because he hasn’t allowed me to know him well enough. I had no anger towards Kurtz before this and I’m not going to hold a grudge after. I like Kurtz. I just don’t admire him. He’s just another guy. I hope this year at the San Diego Comic Con, things could be cool and not percieved as any ass kissing. If not, oh well. I’m in the same boat as him, I feel, but he has 8 years on me.
Scott seemed to get it last night on the livecast after Kris gave his 2 cents. In the end, my point got across one way or another and that’s all I can ask for.
Comment by Chad Diez — February 2, 2007 @ 2:32 pm
this is all so very clear to me now. I can’t believe I didn’t see this before. And I feel really stupid that I got drug into it.
The Midnight Cartoonist is Jason Sigler, a cartoonist and friend of Chad Diez.
Chad Diez is good friends with Wiz Rollins.
Wiz Rollins is the new writer of Yirmumah and friends with DJ Coffman.
I wonder how much of this article was planned in email between the four of you guys before you posted it?
This is the kind of stuff I’m talking about guys. Even the “news sites” of this community is victim to it. Is anything in webcomics “real?” or is it all a bunch of friends pretending and playing house.
Comment by Scott Kurtz — February 2, 2007 @ 7:13 pm
Wow, Kurtz. You sound worse than the National Enquirer. Yes, those connections are true but NO E-MAILS were sent. This wasn’t planned at ALL. This was JASON writing an article, YOU being an ass from your comment then ME ripping you a new asshole because of it.
Keep your conspiracy theories to yourself and let this rest for christ’s sake.
Comment by Chad Diez — February 2, 2007 @ 7:46 pm
Let it rest? Finally. Something we can all agree on.
This was the first Kurtz/Coffman/whoever else fiasco I was involved directly in, so that was a big thing for me. I officially now feel like I’m “in” webcomics. So thanks for that, fellas.
Secondly, Jason Sigler, hmm? I guess it COULD be true… I mean, I haven’t ever seen the two of us together. But Jason wears glasses and I CLEARLY have a mask. I’d say that’s theory disproven. HA!
And third, I only respond to this because, regardless of which of my personas wrote this article (which, I would like to reiterate, was written entirely in SATIRE mode), I do not make attacks on others, ESPECIALLY based on the words of friends. I know OF Chad and I consider him a brother in Bomb Shelter Church…er, I mean, Comics, but that had ZERO. Zilch. Nada. Nothing, to do with my writing this article.
If those guys are working behind the scenes to overthrow someone from their position as President of Webcomics, that’s their thing. Mine is to write, somewhat cleverly, about what I see fit and no one has any influence in that besides me.
Again, this could be me overreacting to more hyperbole from you, Scott, that should be construed as sarcasm, but if it’s not, it’s a personal attack on my character and I won’t have it.
I WILL, however, have some more attention. Anyone want The Midnight Cartooner on your Pod/Talkcast? Bidding opens… NOW!
Comment by midnightcartooner — February 2, 2007 @ 8:05 pm
Scott, you sound REALLY fucking paranoid now. I think if we played six degrees of seperation with Wiz Rollins, he’d be connected to everyone with the amount of strips he’s writing! The only time we e-mail is when he’s saying “SHIT MAN, I’LL HAVE SCRIPTS TO YOU SOON!” (like this afternoon. - I havent spoken to CHad Diez since seeing him all crippled up at San Diego Comicon.
So, no, there’s no DJ Coffman conspiracy here. I downloaded your podcast today and listened to it while I was working, and I have to say you kinda summed up your thoughts better that way, talking it out. The whole “fuck webcomics” thing at least. It’s harder to do that on a message board or text on a screen. Kris Straub seems to have the levelest head about what “webcomics” is, or his description of the “cottage industry” — It’s given me something to think about, and something I immediately agreed with.
I was also happy to hear that Pvp show #7 would be called DJ COFFMAN IS A COCKSMOKER. Thank you for thinking of me. Now, you guys have a lot of work to go do on your “let’s pretend” - “animated series” — and I should be working for my corporate masters at Platinum Studios right now.
GOODBYE FOR NOW!!!!!!!!!!!!!! EERRRNTT…
Comment by DJ Coffman — February 2, 2007 @ 8:19 pm
try not to punch any gay guys on the way back to your drafting table.
Comment by Scott Kurtz — February 2, 2007 @ 8:31 pm
You can read my reply to you over in the other thread.
At least Daku hasnt locked these things down yet!
Comment by DJ Coffman — February 2, 2007 @ 8:50 pm
I keep considering locking them, but every time I think I’m gonna do it, shit seems resolved, so there’s no need to lock things down here.
Let’s let it end here, shall we?
Comment by Phil Kahn — February 2, 2007 @ 10:27 pm
Shut up, Kahn! Eat my libel, you dark-haired son of a mother!
b
Comment by brandonjcarr — February 2, 2007 @ 11:17 pm
Brandon, you mole-faced cheese-eating donkey’s uncle. I’ve got seniority on your ass, so watch it.
Comment by Phil Kahn — February 2, 2007 @ 11:42 pm
This is like watching ants fight over who is the biggest ant.
Comment by Gabriel — February 5, 2007 @ 5:12 pm
Can I be a fire ant? Because I’m hot, baby. Hottastic. SPICY! Yeah!
What were we talking about?
b
Comment by brandonjcarr — February 6, 2007 @ 12:27 am